Meditation? - Page 2

SinsChampion · 04-20-2009, 11:50 AM

Which is the biggest problem I have with organized religion. Adding shit to what the person that you acknowledge as the "founder" of your belief system specifically stated, for some other purpose. Not cool.

milesteg · 04-20-2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by SinsChampion

And if you go to the new testament (which, in theory Christianity is based upon), Jesus specifically states that there are actually only 2 laws - love God with all you are, and Love everybody else, too (not all that easy to do, but a lot easier to understand). It is implied that the previous laws were being overrulled at this point.

Where does he say that?

SinsChampion · 04-20-2009, 12:11 PM

Mark 12: 28-31, with an expoundment of it in Luke 10:25-37. (The good samaritan story is prefaced by somebody bringing up that specific quote to Jesus and asking for an explanation of who exactly their neighbors are)

SinsChampion · 04-20-2009, 12:21 PM

Another reaaaaly good one is Matthew 7:12. This is where the idea that the other laws are superceded at this point comes from.

SinsChampion · 04-20-2009, 12:23 PM

Miles, the problem I really have is how rare it is for organized religion to actually follow these precepts. More often than not they make up additional rules, in order to bind followers to their specific way of thinking more closely. This is where I split off and decide to follow what the text says instead of what some big-hat wearing individual decrees.

RapeChoke · 04-20-2009, 12:34 PM

Gay its like church school in here

SinsChampion · 04-20-2009, 12:35 PM

And????????? A legitimate discussion was going on, questions were asked, evidence procurred, and life goes on.

milesteg · 05-06-2009, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by SinsChampion

Miles, the problem I really have is how rare it is for organized religion to actually follow these precepts. More often than not they make up additional rules, in order to bind followers to their specific way of thinking more closely. This is where I split off and decide to follow what the text says instead of what some big-hat wearing individual decrees.

Sorry, I lost track of this thread and didn't see the responses.

I have a similar problem with "organized religion." But precepts aside I don't think 99.9999% of christianity even follows or understands the letter of the law.

It's one thing when ppl say "Oh all these fanatics are interpreting the bible Literally, oh that's bad."
And I say, "I only WISH they interpreted the bible literally."

As I was telling my pro-jesus friend the other day, look if we're to believe the bible is from god, he could have given us ANYTHING he wanted as a guide. He coulda made songs, he coulda made a giant television and shown us video, he could have had angels come down and tell us individually how to behave. But he didn't do that. He gave us a Law Book. And law is not concerned with the "why's and wherefores" only the matter of fact and protocol.

The bible is not vague or unclear. It's quite literal, especially the Torah and the specific sermons of Jesus.

But it goes widely unread and unprocessed. Here's an off the top of my head example. Charity. Jesus flat out says in no uncertain terms, not even in allagory or parables he just comes out and says "If you give to charity don't take credit for it." Yet asside from the Quakers I don't know any christians that practise that.
Divorce, Diet, Civics, Sexuality, War, City Living, Rape, Church Practices, these are all things clearly laid out in the bible that only the ultra FRINGE christians(jehovah's witnesses/quakers/ecT) pay any attention to.

I submit that if we all had "National Bible Day" tomorrow and we all sat down and read through the bible, at the end of the day NO ONE would be left christian because what's in the bible is COMPLETELY unrecognizable in today's "Christianity".

SinsChampion · 05-06-2009, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by milesteg

Sorry, I lost track of this thread and didn't see the responses.

I have a similar problem with "organized religion." But precepts aside I don't think 99.9999% of christianity even follows or understands the letter of the law.

It's one thing when ppl say "Oh all these fanatics are interpreting the bible Literally, oh that's bad."
And I say, "I only WISH they interpreted the bible literally."

As I was telling my pro-jesus friend the other day, look if we're to believe the bible is from god, he could have given us ANYTHING he wanted as a guide. He coulda made songs, he coulda made a giant television and shown us video, he could have had angels come down and tell us individually how to behave. But he didn't do that. He gave us a Law Book. And law is not concerned with the "why's and wherefores" only the matter of fact and protocol.

The bible is not vague or unclear. It's quite literal, especially the Torah and the specific sermons of Jesus.

But it goes widely unread and unprocessed. Here's an off the top of my head example. Charity. Jesus flat out says in no uncertain terms, not even in allagory or parables he just comes out and says "If you give to charity don't take credit for it." Yet asside from the Quakers I don't know any christians that practise that.
Divorce, Diet, Civics, Sexuality, War, City Living, Rape, Church Practices, these are all things clearly laid out in the bible that only the ultra FRINGE christians(jehovah's witnesses/quakers/ecT) pay any attention to.

I submit that if we all had "National Bible Day" tomorrow and we all sat down and read through the bible, at the end of the day NO ONE would be left christian because what's in the bible is COMPLETELY unrecognizable in today's "Christianity".

I counter with 30-40% of current Christians would stay so, and be better off for it, and 10-15% of people who aren't would decide to become.

Here's why - a vast majority of people who claim to be christians are not doing so because they believe it is the way to be. They are doing so because it is the societally correct thing to do. However, there is a certain percentage who are christinas because they are convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is the way. Period. You've got to figure that those people in the latter group already read teh scripture and do their best to follow it (you'll never get it completely right, that's just a fact), and by reading the entire thing in one sitting - in a hypothetical world - would not only reinforce that thinking, it would probably strengthen it. Additionally, you've got to figure that some (maybe not a ton, but definately some) in the former group would see in writing exactly where organized religion went wrong and notice that at the end of the day, Jesus teachings were pretty damn spot-on for how to live a harmonic life.
Then you've got the non-christians. I'd have to say that a decent percentage of them would read the bible, decide that religion has screwed the pooch and what's in there is actually a pretty good blueprint for life. They would notice that a TON of people just drop off from the christians group after being exposed for the hypocrites they are, and there's a good likelyhood that some would notice that the ones left are actually living out what they've read. There would be some attraction in that, and there's your 10-15% or so.

That's just a rough guess, though.

jarwillie · 05-06-2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by milesteg

Sorry, I lost track of this thread and didn't see the responses.

I have a similar problem with "organized religion." But precepts aside I don't think 99.9999% of christianity even follows or understands the letter of the law.

It's one thing when ppl say "Oh all these fanatics are interpreting the bible Literally, oh that's bad."
And I say, "I only WISH they interpreted the bible literally."

As I was telling my pro-jesus friend the other day, look if we're to believe the bible is from god, he could have given us ANYTHING he wanted as a guide. He coulda made songs, he coulda made a giant television and shown us video, he could have had angels come down and tell us individually how to behave. But he didn't do that. He gave us a Law Book. And law is not concerned with the "why's and wherefores" only the matter of fact and protocol.

The bible is not vague or unclear. It's quite literal, especially the Torah and the specific sermons of Jesus.

But it goes widely unread and unprocessed. Here's an off the top of my head example. Charity. Jesus flat out says in no uncertain terms, not even in allagory or parables he just comes out and says "If you give to charity don't take credit for it." Yet asside from the Quakers I don't know any christians that practise that.
Divorce, Diet, Civics, Sexuality, War, City Living, Rape, Church Practices, these are all things clearly laid out in the bible that only the ultra FRINGE christians(jehovah's witnesses/quakers/ecT) pay any attention to.

I submit that if we all had "National Bible Day" tomorrow and we all sat down and read through the bible, at the end of the day NO ONE would be left christian because what's in the bible is COMPLETELY unrecognizable in today's "Christianity".

I have done this plenty of times, and I am one out of many Christians who do the same.

SinsChampion · 05-06-2009, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by jarwillie

I have done this plenty of times, and I am one out of many Christians who do the same.

WAR!

Doing the right thing for it's own reasons SHOULD NOT be an excuse to pat yourself on the back (or have anybody else do it).

RapeChoke · 05-06-2009, 05:36 PM

War Fertile Discussions!!!!

SinsChampion · 05-06-2009, 05:53 PM

Using the brain FTW!!!!!

milesteg · 05-06-2009, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by SinsChampion

You've got to figure that those people in the latter group already read teh scripture and do their best to follow it (you'll never get it completely right, that's just a fact), and by reading the entire thing in one sitting - in a hypothetical world - would not only reinforce that thinking, it would probably strengthen it.

I think if we could magically make everyone UNDERSTAND what they were reading then I wonder if those people wouldn't simply call themselves christian but leave whatever organized religion they were in before.

Additionally, you've got to figure that some (maybe not a ton, but definately some) in the former group would see in writing exactly where organized religion went wrong and notice that at the end of the day, Jesus teachings were pretty damn spot-on for how to live a harmonic life.

You must mean Buddha. Because Jesus wasn't about living a harmonious life. Jesus was a demogogue named Yeshua bin Yusef whose sole issue was an antipathy towards the two ruling religious powers of his day.

He was an apocalyptic prophet whose message wasn't "love your brother" but was more simply "stop what you're doing the end of the world is coming soon."

Sure he's got a few good parables(mostly lifted from Aesop and other B.C. sources) but for every not-so-bad lesson Jesus teaches there's also an outdated weirdo xenophobic/racist shit.

Then you've got the non-christians. I'd have to say that a decent percentage of them would read the bible, decide that religion has screwed the pooch and what's in there is actually a pretty good blueprint for life.

Good Blueprint for life? Well yeah, if you're a nomadic bronze age jewish man living in the dessert, great blueprint. But no, not for a 21st century man with non-neanderthalic views towards women.

SinsChampion · 05-06-2009, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by milesteg

I think if we could magically make everyone UNDERSTAND what they were reading then I wonder if those people wouldn't simply call themselves christian but leave whatever organized religion they were in before.
You must mean Buddha. Because Jesus wasn't about living a harmonious life. Jesus was a demogogue named Yeshua bin Yusef whose sole issue was an antipathy towards the two ruling religious powers of his day.
He was an apocalyptic prophet whose message wasn't "love your brother" but was more simply "stop what you're doing the end of the world is coming soon."
Sure he's got a few good parables(mostly lifted from Aesop and other B.C. sources) but for every not-so-bad lesson Jesus teaches there's also an outdated weirdo xenophobic/racist shit.
Good Blueprint for life? Well yeah, if you're a nomadic bronze age jewish man living in the dessert, great blueprint. But no, not for a 21st century man with non-neanderthalic views towards women.

Here we go paragraph by paragraph:
1 - yes, they would leave whatever organized religion they were in before - for reasons we both have covered and agree with each other on.
2 - Actually take the time to read it again, miles. Time after time, Jesus specifically spoke on "loving your brother" etc. - which seems to me to be within the lines of harmonious existence, not with nature and the world around you, but with others - (why else would he have an entire sermon espousing the virtues of being meek, merciful, peacemakers, pure in heart etc.). Regarding your point of him being a apocalyptic prophet, point out a specific example of him stating clearly that the end of the world was coming soon, please. Additionally, I would argue against labeling him as a demagogue. Demagoguery tends to lend itself to speaking out and pointing out other's faults without prompting. Most every instance (I'm almost sure EVERY instance, but for safety's sake...) of his preaching is predicated by others asking questions. He may have on occasion led the questioning, sure, but to the best of my knowledge, nowhere did he volunteer the lessons without prompting.
3 - Most of his parables ARE good ones, and yes there are definitely examples of similar parables in other cultures of antiquity. Did he lift them directly?? That's tough to say one way or the other. The transfer of information back then was rather difficult - language and travel barriers - but not impossible. However, I would argue that it is rather short-sighted and does a disservice to various cultures world-wide, to assume that a valuable lesson could only have occurred to one ethnic group of people. That is, if a parable was told by Aesop in Greece, do you really truly think that the same lesson was never taught in Babylon or Persepolis??? Highly doubtful.
4 - When I said blueprint for life, I meant exactly that. For interpersonal relations, there is not a more complete and better written set of guidelines in existence. When you say that it was good only for nomadic semitic peoples roaming the desert, I have to honestly wonder which specific passages you were referring to. Absolutely, positively, none of the guidelines espoused by him fit the description you give.

Now, I would absolutely agree with you that you have to be especially careful when sifting through the lessons to rid them of ideas that were societal-specific. Odds are very good that in the doing you will lose most of the good stuff in there. But as you well know, it is the actual work of studying the information that makes any intellectual pursuit worthwhile.